Shownotes

Amanda opens up about her journey through different cultural landscapes and how these experiences have shaped her understanding and advocacy for diversity and inclusion. This episode offers a unique perspective on the often-unspoken challenges white individuals face when discussing race, and the importance of self-education in understanding the experiences of others.

Amanda brings to the table invaluable insights into the critical role HR plays in fostering inclusive and equitable work environments. She discusses her proactive approach to leading diversity and inclusion initiatives. 

This episode is a deep dive into the complexities of embracing diversity in the workplace. It's not just a conversation; it's a learning experience that unpacks the nuances of race, inclusion, and the power of understanding different perspectives. Whether you're a professional navigating similar challenges, or someone passionate about creating inclusive spaces, this episode provides essential insights for a more equitable future.

You can find Amanda Flack here.

You can find Barbara Banda here:

The Model Black by Barbara Banda

Music by Maiwa Banda.

Transcription

[00:00:00] Barbara Banda: Hello, I'm Barbara Bander, and this is The Model Black, [00:00:10] a podcast about equity at work. This podcast series aims to create a space where we can have open and positive conversations [00:00:20] around race and difference in the world of work. My ultimate goal is to create more inclusive and equitable workplaces, recognizing [00:00:30] As we do, but achieving equity at work is very much a journey and not a destination.

[00:00:35] Barbara Banda: During this podcast series, we're going to have conversations with experts from [00:00:40] across the globe, exploring what we can all do to make our workplaces more equitable. I'm delighted today to have the opportunity to [00:00:50] talk to Amanda Flax. Amanda is the HR lead for Lindum Group, an employee and family owned construction business.

[00:00:59] Barbara Banda: Amanda has had [00:01:00] over 20 years experience in the field of HR with a particular focus around leadership development, employee engagement, and training, and [00:01:10] for the last 10 years, she's specialized in the area of equity, diversity, and inclusion. Amanda previously worked in the NHS, [00:01:20] local government, and the railway industry.

[00:01:22] Barbara Banda: And she's worked with organizations around a whole range of topics linked to diversity, [00:01:30] belonging, and inclusion in the workplace. And she has a particular interest in and focus on culture and dynamics. So a [00:01:40] very warm welcome to you, Amanda. Great to be talking to you today. 

[00:01:44] Amanda Flacks: Lovely to be here, Barbara.

[00:01:45] Amanda Flacks: Thank you for inviting me. 

[00:01:47] Barbara Banda: Amanda, when we had our kind of [00:01:50] pre chat ahead of recording, I was fascinated to hear how you got into the field of HR and EDI more [00:02:00] specifically. It would be great if you could tell us a little bit about how you ended up here. 

[00:02:05] Amanda Flacks: I actually wasn't supposed to work into HR, I was supposed to be Cracker.

[00:02:08] Amanda Flacks: For those of you over [00:02:10] 45 that can remember an old TV show with Robbie Coltrane, I'd meant to focus around being an Occupational Forensic Psychologist, but actually in the end decided [00:02:20] having looked at the field and going to Hull Prison on a day trip, that perhaps wasn't my field, and I'd perhaps focused more on HR.

[00:02:26] Amanda Flacks: I went across to America and I lived in New York for a couple of years. [00:02:30] And when I was over there, I really learned about culture, about difference, about belonging, and more specifically about not quite fitting in. And when I [00:02:40] came back from the US, I decided to focus more on the HR field, went into recruitment and casework, and then over the years moved slowly towards [00:02:50] diversity and inclusion, which is something that I have a particular interest in.

[00:02:53] Amanda Flacks: Because not only did I have the background of living in a different country and realizing that I was very much a product of my upbringing. [00:03:00] But also I have friends that are deaf and I sign and I'd realized that perhaps society has some rules for some people and some rules for others and from an HR field [00:03:10] that's particularly interesting.

[00:03:11] Amanda Flacks: So you said 

[00:03:13] Barbara Banda: you had almost a kind of awakening when you were in the US. Do you want to say something more about that? [00:03:20] What happened? Was there a particular day that you had an experience or was it a more gradual 

[00:03:26] Amanda Flacks: evolution? I think when you first move to a country that [00:03:30] still speaks the same language on the surface, you tend to think there's very little cultural difference.

[00:03:34] Amanda Flacks: And then after you've been there a few months, you realize that your popular references are different, [00:03:40] the TV programs that you refer to, the music you listen to, how you think, your values and belief systems are certainly very embedded from where you've grown up. And [00:03:50] prior to that, I'd been at university and I'd spent three years living with a friend that was originally from Ghana.

[00:03:55] Amanda Flacks: And I think seeing her experiences of moving to a different country [00:04:00] and trying to assimilate. I hadn't truly understood the differences until I was that person on the outside looking in and then suddenly all the things that she said to me over the years started to [00:04:10] resonate because you realize that in fact there are more differences than you realize when you start having a conversation with somebody and you refer to something that you think everybody will get and they look [00:04:20] at you a little bit like, I don't really understand what you're talking about.

[00:04:23] Amanda Flacks: It's been something that over a number of years, I've probably even gravitated towards people that are a little bit different, [00:04:30] have different experiences, because I love learning. And I love when someone says, I don't agree with you. I think that's a great place to start a conversation, not a great place to finish it.

[00:04:39] Amanda Flacks: That's [00:04:40] absolutely 

[00:04:40] Barbara Banda: fascinating, Amanda, and great to hear. And as I have a particular interest in this idea and area of lived [00:04:50] experience. So you had a lived experience that gave you a different perspective on the world, and I guess what I'm hearing is that you were much more able to [00:05:00] empathize with and understand the experience of others who felt that perhaps they were outside of the majority.

[00:05:07] Barbara Banda: whatever that 

[00:05:07] Amanda Flacks: looked like. Yeah, absolutely. I [00:05:10] think that when I moved to the U. S., it was one of those things where religion's very different, relationships are very different, the rules around the workplace are very different, [00:05:20] so sense of humor for certain is definitely one that I could resonate with. I can remember getting Pulled in by HR, which is ironic.

[00:05:26] Amanda Flacks: I made it my field afterwards and I have this lovely American woman sit me down and [00:05:30] go, Amanda, I've got a slight concern. We've had a few comments made about the fact that over time you appear to be getting slightly more relaxed with people, slightly more jokey, and then you've [00:05:40] pushed into being, upon occasion, a little bit too far.

[00:05:43] Amanda Flacks: Now, I am British, so therefore my approach is you start off being extremely polite to people and over [00:05:50] time as you get to know them you relax a little bit. You start making jokes and you build a rapport that way. Now Americans are a little bit different. What I didn't understand is that they start off quite brusque, [00:06:00] dismissive, and as they like you more they get friendlier.

[00:06:03] Amanda Flacks: So there was this beautiful time when I got slightly ruder and they got slightly friendlier, that we really engaged and connected with each [00:06:10] other. The problem is that having been raised in a normal working class family up north, you take the joke and you go with it. So I kept going and it wasn't until someone explained to me that isn't [00:06:20] the culture, that isn't the way we do things in America, that I sat back and thought, wow, the rules of engagement are a little bit different and I had to learn the hard way.

[00:06:28] Barbara Banda: Yes, so you [00:06:30] learnt about that in the US, you came back to the UK and continued to develop your career in HR, or was that the switch [00:06:40] that you made at that time? Tell me a little bit more about how that happened. 

[00:06:44] Amanda Flacks: So I initially went to get Qualified as an occupational psychologist because I was particularly [00:06:50] interested in how people act in the workplace.

[00:06:52] Amanda Flacks: It was something around thinking about relationships but also things like bullying, disengagement, how people have different [00:07:00] perspectives in the workplace and how that can impact dynamics. But then having done that as a qualification I decided that actually I wanted more the practical side of things. I actually wanted to be in [00:07:10] the workplace and build those relationships.

[00:07:12] Amanda Flacks: So at that point I moved into the NHS. And I moved into HR there focusing on recruitment and particularly around [00:07:20] recruiting doctors around the Midlands. 

[00:07:23] Barbara Banda: So you worked in the NHS, then you moved into local government. So at what point did you [00:07:30] develop this interest in the whole kind of equity, diversity and inclusion field?

[00:07:35] Barbara Banda: When exactly did this happen? So 

[00:07:37] Amanda Flacks: I'd been working in HR for around 10 years, and [00:07:40] by that point I'd probably done most of the jobs in HR that you could do. And I met a friend who said that she was going to undertake a sign language [00:07:50] course. And I thought, oh, I haven't got that skill. I think I'll pop along with her.

[00:07:55] Amanda Flacks: And it was through meeting her and through [00:08:00] working a lot with the deaf community for a number of years, that I started to get a very clear perspective on how life rather looks [00:08:10] back at you. We always talk about we see life through our own lens. I think what people don't understand is that the world looks back at you, and it makes judgments on you, and it pigeonholes you.[00:08:20] 

[00:08:20] Amanda Flacks: and that then inevitably has an impact on you as a person. And when I started to see that from a disability perspective, and I'd obviously had my experiences living abroad from a cultural perspective, [00:08:30] I'd lived for a number of years from a person that had been from a different country and from a different culture, different heritage.

[00:08:36] Amanda Flacks: These things will start to collide and start to make you realize that my [00:08:40] experience was my experience. And that's as a small, round, middle aged white woman. And I've pretty much got that down. I'm not sure what it's like to be a man. I don't know what it's like to be [00:08:50] from a different ethnicity or heritage.

[00:08:52] Amanda Flacks: I don't know what it's like to have certain disabilities. And I think that really piqued my interest into understanding the impacts that had in the workplace, [00:09:00] not only for opportunities, but even to attracting people to certain jobs. And the self. limiting behaviors that we have to, I can't apply for that, [00:09:10] I'm not going to succeed at that, and the impact that therefore has on not only the business but the individual themselves.

[00:09:17] Barbara Banda: So you had a sense of the [00:09:20] impact that it had, you've then done this sign language course, you're understanding the experience, as we've said, of people who are [00:09:30] different from yourself, And then you start to get involved in actually making change happen in the organization. So how did you make that shift to [00:09:40] actually bringing about new initiatives in the organization that you worked in?

[00:09:46] Barbara Banda: Was this a slow 

[00:09:47] Amanda Flacks: process? Slowly. [00:09:50] I think that big change in large organizations is practically impossible. I think the first thing I did was speak to leadership and talk about the impact that excluding some people [00:10:00] from even applying for jobs was having upon the diversity of the business. And that's quite hard when you're in Derbyshire.

[00:10:05] Amanda Flacks: It's a predominantly white area. There are areas of certain [00:10:10] affluence and there are some areas where socio economic backgrounds are variable, but it's certainly predominantly a middle class area. And I started off talking to [00:10:20] leadership about different experiences that people had. I deliberately brought along people that had different experiences of working with the council and working with different businesses within that area.[00:10:30] 

[00:10:30] Amanda Flacks: And then I. I started working with network groups and that's the first time I think I truly got to get into the nuts and bolts of difference in the [00:10:40] workplace because you see surface level quite clearly. I think what you don't see are the embedded underneath problems that sit. within a person that actually [00:10:50] takes years and years to process and can actually really be a self limiting experience.

[00:10:54] Amanda Flacks: So I started to work with leadership, I worked with network groups, I then made the [00:11:00] network groups consider working with local charities so they could give back, and that brought a whole different dynamic of actually bringing in charities into our business so that leadership could see the impact that the work [00:11:10] was having.

[00:11:10] Amanda Flacks: Not only internally to the business, but to local communities. And then I also got us to work with the police, the fire service, the local college, the local [00:11:20] university, and it became a real network of change to use each other, to support each other, to learn from each other about best practice, best approaches across a whole [00:11:30] range of sectors.

[00:11:31] Amanda Flacks: And it really gave me. The encouragement to continue having those discussions, which sometimes can be very awkward. There's nothing [00:11:40] easy about discussing difference. It often makes people hold the mirror and they don't necessarily like that. And I think we can all resonate with that time that we realized we didn't quite [00:11:50] do the right thing.

[00:11:51] Amanda Flacks: And I think the organizations absolutely can do the right thing. And it should be at forefront of all of their strategic planning. It should be at [00:12:00] the forefront of all their decision making and. I think to do that, you need very enthusiastic, very passionate people that truly believe in what they're doing.

[00:12:09] Amanda Flacks: And luckily, that's [00:12:10] what I had the opportunity to do when I worked at the council. Great. 

[00:12:13] Barbara Banda: That's fascinating. So then tell me something about some of the very [00:12:20] specific experiences that you had, because I'm hearing. about what you did, I'm hearing about the changes that you made. Are there any things that kind of stand out in your mind?

[00:12:29] Barbara Banda: [00:12:30] Any particular days, any specific experiences when you thought, yeah, I've made a difference here, or that was an interesting conversation that switched [00:12:40] something. Are there any specific examples like that you want to share with us? There 

[00:12:44] Amanda Flacks: are two particular instances that really resonate in my mind.

[00:12:47] Amanda Flacks: The first was working with a range of [00:12:50] local community groups that were focusing on race in the Chesterfield area and in Derby city centre and it was absolutely remarkable to sit down [00:13:00] with people that were leaders in their field professionally and yet still felt that within their own local communities they didn't have a voice.

[00:13:07] Amanda Flacks: that they were still the minority, that they still had [00:13:10] to diminish themselves to be accepted, that they almost had to hide their success to be warranted to be invited into a conversation. [00:13:20] And I remember them coming along to a day that the council had arranged where all of these groups got together and traditionally these groups hadn't really had the space and time to share a day [00:13:30] really celebrating all the different Successes and the different achievements that they had made as individual groups.

[00:13:35] Amanda Flacks: And it was a day actually I had a speaker come to the council. It was [00:13:40] Professor Beckford and he came along and he did a talk around the syllopsism of education and how different bits of history have been written out of the [00:13:50] narrative. And I remember the groups all sitting there and they were all from very different backgrounds.

[00:13:54] Amanda Flacks: We had the Afro Caribbean group, we had a Ghanaian group, we had a Ukrainian group, we had [00:14:00] Pakistani groups. all different ethnicities, backgrounds and cultures. And they all sat there and listened to the shared narrative of their history being removed. [00:14:10] But I also remember looking around the room and seeing the white people in that room sit there in complete shock and horror.

[00:14:16] Amanda Flacks: That's something that plainly is in sight. They [00:14:20] hadn't seen and the groups then really supported the white people in the group to make that journey and do it in a safe way. And I will never [00:14:30] forget that because I had people come up to me before go, I never thought that these things happened. I never realized what part of the system I was still a member of and I will [00:14:40] never forget.

[00:14:41] Amanda Flacks: that people that day truly left that building different than when they'd entered it. Another day I really remember was working with the deaf community and we had a meeting for all the [00:14:50] people that were working on a particular project with the council around education. So Derbyshire's quite a unique council in that it has a number of enhanced resource units [00:15:00] where deaf children can be integrated with hearing children.

[00:15:03] Amanda Flacks: Now there's lots of politics around this and I understand that, but it's around parental choice. And we're trying to offer an [00:15:10] opportunity for those parents and those families to come together and discuss what it's like to be profoundly deaf, to be a sign language user, and actually still get a mainstream education.[00:15:20] 

[00:15:20] Amanda Flacks: And I remember, there must have been 200 people in the room, all signing, and it was so noisy, but not a word was being spoken. And it was full of [00:15:30] laughter and full of humor and full of understanding. And I had a number of councillors come to me after that meeting and go, Today's the first day I've really understood the impact of the [00:15:40] decisions that I make in a council room.

[00:15:43] Amanda Flacks: The actual impact that then has leaving this building onto the communities around us and the children of our future. [00:15:50] And I remember thinking, I'm so glad I've been a part of actually allowing that person to understand that when you sit down in an office of position of power, that actually [00:16:00] does have a major impact to people on the streets.

[00:16:03] Barbara Banda: So what I'm hearing from you, Amanda, are two really excellent examples of where [00:16:10] you've seen real change happen, more or less in front of your eyes. That's what I'm hearing. And I guess those are quite magic moments, aren't they? in your [00:16:20] experience, in your working 

[00:16:22] Amanda Flacks: life? They are, and I'll tell you why they're particularly resonant.

[00:16:27] Amanda Flacks: When you work in a training field, you often [00:16:30] prepare particular slide decks. You sit down and you think of what you're trying to communicate, and it tends to be somewhat formulaic. And what you spoke of earlier, which is lived [00:16:40] experience, when people really connect to each other, that's when real change happens.

[00:16:45] Amanda Flacks: And that connection only comes from being real from actually sharing the good and the [00:16:50] bad and being truly honest and authentic about how you feel and those two experiences where people just bringing in their authentic selves and just saying this [00:17:00] is my experience without judgment without expectation and actually just allowing people to sit with that.

[00:17:07] Amanda Flacks: and understand it and understand their [00:17:10] affiliative background to that. So as a white person, would I have truly understood all of those different ethnicities, those different cultures, that heritage? No, I've had to [00:17:20] educate myself, but that's been at the grace of people allowing me to sit down with them and understand their experience as being different from mine.

[00:17:27] Amanda Flacks: So it's not something that I own, it's not my [00:17:30] narrative. But I absolutely take responsibility for educating myself and understanding other people's experiences. And so to be able to share that with others and see that same [00:17:40] recognition in their faces was beautiful because it wasn't meant to be a training session.

[00:17:44] Amanda Flacks: It was just meant to be a celebration, 

[00:17:46] Barbara Banda: right? Yes, Amanda, and you [00:17:50] are you're clearly a white woman, and you're working in this area, this EGI area, an area where race, [00:18:00] particularly in recent years, it's become a very big discussion point. What's that been like for you? 

[00:18:06] Amanda Flacks: I'm actually okay discussing race because I understand that it's not my narrative, I [00:18:10] don't try and own it.

[00:18:11] Amanda Flacks: I don't think that's right for white people to own someone else's story and their back history. What I do think is that lots of other white people feel very uncomfortable [00:18:20] discussing race. I understand why. It's not a comfortable conversation to recognize that a system we live with today is at the benefit of things that have happened in the past [00:18:30] that aren't fair, that are abusive, that aren't something that we should celebrate.

[00:18:35] Amanda Flacks: And yet where we sit today is a direct result of those behaviors. And I think lots of [00:18:40] white people sit there and they go I can't change the past. I can't have an impact on that. I don't think that it's my narrative. I don't think it's been my power to have those conversations. [00:18:50] For me as a white person, I think it's absolutely my place to say, my life is through a white person's lens, that does not mean that I can't try and understand and [00:19:00] absolutely adjust my behavior where required to really understand someone else's background.

[00:19:05] Amanda Flacks: And if I don't understand it, at least ask questions. I really believe in [00:19:10] curiosity. I think the problem is these days, white people are very scared of being curious. I think they're worried about saying the wrong words, saying the wrong thing, making mistakes, being [00:19:20] labeled as something, and, it's a real pity.

[00:19:23] Amanda Flacks: Because all it's about is connection. It's about really understanding someone else's experiences and just really sitting with [00:19:30] it. And that's absolutely fine to say, I don't get it. I don't understand that. But let's be curious. Let's ask questions. Let's try and understand a person and their [00:19:40] difference.

[00:19:40] Amanda Flacks: Thank you for 

[00:19:40] Barbara Banda: that response, Amanda, because I asked that question because, as you probably know, I've spoken to a lot of Black people who are working in this [00:19:50] field, and they often complain that they've come up against a kind of wall. And I wonder whether there's some benefit, if I could even [00:20:00] call it that, in actually being a white person in this field.

[00:20:03] Barbara Banda: Is there a certain connection that you feel that you can make that perhaps allows people 

[00:20:08] Amanda Flacks: to open up? I've [00:20:10] had very honest conversations with people, and perhaps that is because I am white, whether it's because also I work in HR and they feel too scared to say no, I don't know about that, but I [00:20:20] think that when someone looks like you and sounds like you and thinks like you, that can be a bad thing.

[00:20:25] Amanda Flacks: But I think when it comes to discussing the same barriers, it can be a positive [00:20:30] because people go actually, you get it, you're white, you understand where I'm feeling awkward. Do I think it's a benefit to be white working around any area of diversity and inclusion. [00:20:40] It can be. I think it can also make people say, how would you know?

[00:20:44] Amanda Flacks: It's not your experience it's not your heritage, it's not your culture. And they're absolutely right to pull me [00:20:50] up on that. I can't own something that I'm physically not. That's not my story here. All I want to do is to allow people to understand that their [00:21:00] experience is through their lens and you can have the same experience with two people standing side by side and what they take away is very different because of who and what they are.

[00:21:09] Barbara Banda: And [00:21:10] that understanding then, that, that kind of way of seeing the world, Amanda, how have you brought that then inside the organizations [00:21:20] that you've worked with? For example, as you've been, as we've been talking, I understand that you did a lot of work in the railway industry. So how have you brought those [00:21:30] ideas, that understanding into the work that you did there, for example?

[00:21:34] Barbara Banda: So 

[00:21:34] Amanda Flacks: we've tried a number of things. The first thing I did was to focus on leadership, and I brought all of the leaders [00:21:40] across a number of rail organizations together into one session. And I brought a footballer that I knew to come in and talk to him about his experiences around [00:21:50] race. Now the reason I selected him was because he'd been very successful.

[00:21:54] Amanda Flacks: He'd really managed to break through the ceiling and be someone that people respected and saw [00:22:00] as a success. And so I thought with these leaders that had a very similar socioeconomic background, there might be some level of connection there, even if race wasn't that [00:22:10] connection. And It definitely raised lots of questions and afterwards I had so many emails and phone calls and discussions with people saying I [00:22:20] had never realized the barriers that existed and how much adjustment black people had to make to be seen to fit into the narrative of you're [00:22:30] allowed to be successful because you have these characteristics and this leader spoke of having to, I believe it's a lot.

[00:22:36] Amanda Flacks: You discuss in your book a little bit about self silencing, [00:22:40] softening certain aspects, hiding difference, so particularly around alcohol and the drinking culture, he'd had to accept changes around that. And it's things that [00:22:50] people had never even thought about. Leaders do have great conversations, I think, now around gender difference.

[00:22:57] Amanda Flacks: They were discussing the fact that people had parental [00:23:00] responsibilities. What they weren't discussing was things around religion. They weren't discussing things around different cultural aspects and. It was really interesting to see [00:23:10] them go through that change. They then wanted me to speak to frontline staff, and this is where actually things got a little bit more difficult.

[00:23:17] Amanda Flacks: So I met with some [00:23:20] middle managers in the organization, and we were discussing why is it that in the rail industry there are no black leaders? There are none in the UK that are black. And the response I [00:23:30] got was black people don't like trains. Yes, so to which I stopped what I was saying and I had a slide deck prepared and I actually just stopped and said, [00:23:40] okay, I'm just going to stop this right here.

[00:23:41] Amanda Flacks: Let's just talk. Why do you believe that? Now in that room, there was one black man and his head was down and he didn't look up throughout the entire [00:23:50] hour and a half discussion. He self silenced. We all sat there and discussed all these different things about barriers and [00:24:00] experiences and judgments and stereotypes.

[00:24:02] Amanda Flacks: And I would say out of those 50 people in that room, one or two, perhaps by the end of it, started [00:24:10] to understand that perhaps they were seeing life through their lens. It wasn't until afterwards and that's where something I think in your book where you wrote about people saying, oh, can I just have a [00:24:20] word afterwards?

[00:24:21] Amanda Flacks: There was probably four or five people that came up to me and it was outside the building, outside of eye shot and ear shot of any of their colleagues. They said, thank you for raising [00:24:30] that. Thank you. I'm married to someone from a different ethnicity and I've never been able to tell anybody.

[00:24:34] Amanda Flacks: Thank you for raising that. I've never had to. Had the courage to do it myself and you've [00:24:40] raised it and I really appreciate it. And I had the same discussion with women as well that actually felt that they were being self silenced and having, they were having to soften themselves and change themselves [00:24:50] into this version of themselves that fitted into the wider group.

[00:24:55] Amanda Flacks: And it's when you see that people actually are too scared [00:25:00] to have honest conversations with colleagues that you realize that, yeah, leadership might be getting there, they might actively be encouraging you to go and talk to staff. Some staff [00:25:10] are really wanting to get engaged, they really believe in people being their authentic selves in the workplace, and there are others that just don't see it.[00:25:20] 

[00:25:20] Amanda Flacks: They genuinely don't see racism, sexism, phobias around sexuality, they don't see difference in [00:25:30] disability, they just don't see it because as far as they're concerned, they're kind. therefore why is there a problem? We're all just kind, 

[00:25:36] Barbara Banda: right? Yes, and that's the challenge, isn't it? [00:25:40] You've got different groups because what you've explained beautifully is that there are these different responses that you've got from different levels within the [00:25:50] organisation.

[00:25:50] Barbara Banda: And I really love what you've just said about people coming up and chatting to you afterwards because of what you've done, because what you did do is to make it [00:26:00] safe. for hopefully safer for them to start to have those conversations after you've left, because in many cases, it's what happens after you leave the [00:26:10] room that matters as well.

[00:26:12] Barbara Banda: Isn't it, Amanda? As a kind of HR professional, that really matters 

[00:26:15] Amanda Flacks: to you. Absolutely. I think culture is something that leaders and businesses [00:26:20] really need to focus on. And we have to accept that if we have an organization where there's more than one workplace, you're going to have microcultures. And each experience for those employees will [00:26:30] vary.

[00:26:31] Amanda Flacks: So when I talk about working in the rail industry, it had depots, it had headquarters, it has stations, and different types of jobs tends to attract [00:26:40] different types of people. So if we think about engineers, you're going to have analytical people. If you think about people working in training, they're going to be people, not always, but generally as a rule.

[00:26:49] Amanda Flacks: So when you [00:26:50] have these conversations, different approaches, need to occur. An approach I would often take is around making it into games. Gamification discussions. You roll a [00:27:00] dice and you do snakes and ladders and you say, okay, you've landed on this particular date. On that date, we introduced an act around disability.

[00:27:07] Amanda Flacks: Why was it at that date? And you can see people [00:27:10] going, oh, I don't understand why, and a discussion occurs, and then you roll it again, and it lands on something about race, something about gender. And, you can try and have conversations in different [00:27:20] ways. It's difficult. to have one approach where in a HR team you can say this is the approach we're going to take to diversity and inclusion.

[00:27:29] Amanda Flacks: It just [00:27:30] doesn't work. You need to take a modular approach, it needs to be an ongoing conversation, you need to instigate cultural change where people feel truly safe to say I don't [00:27:40] agree, I'm not happy, that isn't appreciated. And I think that a really big barrier, one that I definitely have come across in a number of sectors, [00:27:50] is the idea that banter isn't bullying.

[00:27:54] Amanda Flacks: Now, they're very linked sometimes, but they're not always the same, and it's really easy. So anyone listening [00:28:00] today, banter is two people who like each other, stepping up to the occy and having a laugh. They both know that they are having a sense of humor, they're not, there's no [00:28:10] intention there to hurt each other, and if one person says, I'm done, it immediately stops with respect.

[00:28:16] Amanda Flacks: Banter is where you target somebody, you have a go at [00:28:20] them, they don't have the power to reply, and when they say stop, the other protagonist does not. So anyone saying it's just banter, if it's not a friend, if it wasn't with [00:28:30] friendly intent, if you didn't immediately stop when they asked you to, it's not banter.

[00:28:35] Amanda Flacks: You've crossed a line and people just don't seem to understand the difference. 

[00:28:39] Barbara Banda: [00:28:40] Yes, and I guess explaining things in the way that you've just beautifully expressed them, that's part of the change that you want to see in organizations.[00:28:50] An understanding of when it isn't banter and what it then requires from them.

[00:28:56] Barbara Banda: And do you also talk to people about [00:29:00] allyship, if we can call it that, about speaking up, calling out when they see something that isn't banter, about people speaking up in those kinds of [00:29:10] environments? To what extent is that something that you've been involved in? 

[00:29:14] Amanda Flacks: Oh gosh, absolutely. It's definitely again, I always have the belief that if it's [00:29:20] everyone's responsibility, it tends to be no one having accountability.

[00:29:23] Amanda Flacks: Guess what? We are all accountable for the workplaces that we work in. And I'll give you an example where I witnessed [00:29:30] someone. actually being not confident enough to be an ally. So we've done lots of training around this in many different sectors and I'm sure every EDI specialist listening to this will go, [00:29:40] we've done it all, we understand it all, but let's put it into practice.

[00:29:43] Amanda Flacks: So I was at a train station and a train had been cancelled. Now for those of you that don't work in the rail industry, rail's a bit [00:29:50] strange. What happens is if a company decides not to run a train, they can just literally dump you at any station in the country. And it might not even be a station where they have any control over that station.[00:30:00] 

[00:30:00] Amanda Flacks: So you can get left at a station and then all the staff go, why is this train suddenly disembarking? I've got no idea why. And they have to quickly learn that this train's been stopped. And [00:30:10] they've then got to sort out the hundreds of commuters that have just been abandoned partway through their journey.

[00:30:15] Amanda Flacks: And on this particular day, I was at a station, and this had occurred, and there was a member of staff, and [00:30:20] she was approached by two men simultaneously. One was a white man, one was a black man. They were both impeccably dressed, clearly going to a meeting in London, clearly from, [00:30:30] very affluent backgrounds, and they behaved identically.

[00:30:34] Amanda Flacks: So they were both irate. They're both angry. They're both frustrated. They both had obviously a very clear [00:30:40] commitment to getting back to London at a specific time, and they were just trying to say to her, look, you can't just leave us here in the middle of the country. We need to get back to London. How do we get there?

[00:30:49] Amanda Flacks: Now, [00:30:50] subsequently, I learned they were both from the same organization. It turned out to be a law firm, and they were both going back to the same The reaction from the member of staff was to physically step back from the black [00:31:00] person and say, you are threatening me, and to start phoning the British transport police, who actually are the people that monitor train stations.

[00:31:08] Amanda Flacks: And the [00:31:10] behavior that the black man had done was exactly identical to the white person. There was genuinely no difference between them. They were both frustrated, both professionals and both wanting to continue with their day. [00:31:20] And. Her perspective was one person was more threatening than another and I saw three members of staff watching this.

[00:31:28] Amanda Flacks: Two were white and one was [00:31:30] from dual heritage that I know quite well and I saw the person of dual heritage take a step back. I saw her make an active decision that she didn't want to be the person [00:31:40] that made a discussion around race. She just genuinely thought that was going to cause more issues and I saw a white person step forward.

[00:31:47] Amanda Flacks: And go, Okay, this [00:31:50] really isn't a discussion around that. We're not calling the police. Let's just try and get you on your way. And they took over now. The two other people stood in silence and they clearly were [00:32:00] both very uncomfortable with the behavior that they'd seen. They were both equally. disagreeing with what the person was doing, but neither felt the confidence to do it.[00:32:10] 

[00:32:10] Amanda Flacks: And afterwards, I went to speak to the woman that was of dual heritage because I know her really well. We have had conversations around race before. And she said, I just [00:32:20] didn't want to be that person that was yet again, raising someone's behavior around race. It makes me uncomfortable. It's not my job to educate everybody else.

[00:32:28] Amanda Flacks: And I think it's about [00:32:30] times that. The white people in the room stood up a little bit and they accepted that they need to take responsibility for their behavior. And I'm a big believer in words, create [00:32:40] worlds, so someone says something, it sits with you, it resonates with you. And years later, any of us listening today can recall that time where we were made to feel the outlier.[00:32:50] 

[00:32:50] Amanda Flacks: We were made to feel like we weren't accepted. That shock conversation from that person that we really thought trusted us. had a great relationship with us and then suddenly they say something that hits you to the [00:33:00] core that makes you realize they don't understand you, they don't really respect you and this was a series of incidents that had occurred for this member of staff where [00:33:10] they thought I'm not having that conversation anymore, she'd given up and it had to be handed across to a white person that hadn't had that constant day in day out battle [00:33:20] that still had some juice in the tank to have that conversation and so I think that For white people listening today, responsibility does [00:33:30] sit with us to continue that conversation, to raise the conversation, to intercede, to be an upstander, and actually say, I don't accept [00:33:40] that, and not just leave it to people that are having to have that battle day in, day out, to be the constant vanguard of that argument or that change.

[00:33:48] Barbara Banda: So [00:33:50] that allyship, we can call it allyship, we can call it what we want, but it really matters. And that's a fantastic example. And that's the other [00:34:00] thing I think you've raised here, it's something that When I wrote the book, I call it the jolt. It's the moment where you recognize that perhaps you're not in the [00:34:10] majority, but you're actually very much one of the minority.

[00:34:15] Barbara Banda: You're definitely in the minority and you raise it here slightly [00:34:20] differently in the sense of somebody saying that you thought they were on the side and suddenly They're not on side. So how do we make a [00:34:30] comment with grace in that moment then, Amanda? What would you suggest that people who are listening in and saying, I'm seeing it happen, but I'm not quite sure how to intercede.

[00:34:38] Barbara Banda: I'm not quite sure what to [00:34:40] say. 

[00:34:40] Amanda Flacks: So this is a hard one because this is about dynamics, isn't it? So in the workplace, if you're talking to a leader, I'd probably approach that differently than if I was talking to a colleague, and again, differently if it was a [00:34:50] member of my own team. I think you have to judge the situation.

[00:34:53] Amanda Flacks: Do I think it's ever appropriate to say nothing in that moment? If it's a leader, and you're in the middle of a big [00:35:00] meeting, I might pull them aside afterwards to have that discussion because leaders very rarely appreciate being pulled aside in public. But I absolutely believe that you can make comments that aren't [00:35:10] Directly related to that person and still make your point.

[00:35:13] Amanda Flacks: So I've sat in meetings before where someone is making a comment without realizing [00:35:20] they're alienating somebody in the room, and I do believe you can come at it from a different angle and say, Oh I'm on a different point. There's also this issue here, [00:35:30] and I don't think that's being covered either and really highlight there's more than one layer to a discussion.

[00:35:34] Amanda Flacks: So I do believe If you're in a position where you have some leadership over a team, it is [00:35:40] absolutely your responsibility to go, that is unacceptable behavior. I don't appreciate it. And I would be that tough sometimes. Other times I would say, Oh, [00:35:50] can you talk me through that? Because that's not my perspective.

[00:35:52] Amanda Flacks: And I'd like to know more about why you've got to that point. I also believe in saying, Oh, it's interesting. I speak into somebody the other day [00:36:00] and they were saying quite the opposite. Can you give me some more detail about. why you're saying that. I also believe in giving people time to ruminate.

[00:36:08] Amanda Flacks: So sometimes I have said [00:36:10] to people I'd really like to think about what you've just said and later on today I'm going to give you a call and I'd love to chat further. So you're not really giving them much but you're giving them [00:36:20] time to step back and think about what they've said. It's really hard.

[00:36:25] Amanda Flacks: Workplaces are political and sometimes the dynamics of the power [00:36:30] of a relationship can certainly impact how comfortable you feel. about having that discussion with somebody. What I would say is, if you don't feel confident in [00:36:40] the time, that's fine. I'm not sitting here saying we should all be raising flags at left, right and centre and entering to arguments.

[00:36:46] Amanda Flacks: What I do believe though is that we have a responsibility to [00:36:50] say to somebody that it really isn't my perspective and I'm uncomfortable. It doesn't make me feel that we are working In an inclusive way, and we do [00:37:00] know that businesses that are more inclusive tend to be more successful and, we think about when we create things like laws, we create laws, not because we're sitting there in a [00:37:10] corner somewhere thinking, gosh, I really think we could do with more rules.

[00:37:13] Amanda Flacks: We create laws because something's gone wrong. Because there's an inequity, because there's a problem, and we put safety [00:37:20] mechanisms in place to try and redress that balance, and that redressing of the balance needs to happen in conversations too, so we need to create our own rules around [00:37:30] us. So when I start with a new team, I almost lay out my, my, my ground rules, my expectations of behavior.

[00:37:37] Amanda Flacks: If you're around me, I expect these things. And[00:37:40] if I'm not doing the right things back, I absolutely expect you to knock me back into line too, because I can stumble over things. I can make mistakes. Everyone has prejudice. [00:37:50] Everyone can have stereotypes in their heads and we can all sit there at the end of the day and go look wow I totally got that wrong and that's on me it's not on them that's on [00:38:00] me and I need to adjust and I need to change so I think it's constant reeducation constant checking yourselves and constant [00:38:10] reanimation of a discussion to make sure that everyone's definitely traveling in the same direction as you and that you're not being really unclear about how you want to work with people.

[00:38:19] Barbara Banda: Good. So [00:38:20] some really nice tips there. I think for people who are listening to this podcast, things that they can start to think about doing with their teams and ways that they can really think about actively [00:38:30] intervening. So some terrific examples there and some wonderful tips again from you, Amanda. So Amanda.

[00:38:39] Barbara Banda: I've spent 10 [00:38:40] years in this EDI field and I'm focusing on that area. If I ask you to reflect on it, where have you seen the [00:38:50] greatest progress over that period? I 

[00:38:53] Amanda Flacks: think that people are definitely happier having a discussion around sexuality. [00:39:00] around gender, around parental responsibility. I think race is definitely lagging behind that.

[00:39:08] Amanda Flacks: I think that's for sure an area [00:39:10] where people are less comfortable. I think that leaders are more aware that if employees are happy and content, they'll perform better and their businesses will perform better. [00:39:20] So culture is becoming a larger discussion. I think that when it comes to HR, particularly, I have noticed in the last few years that when it comes to testing, we are [00:39:30] making better decisions around the tests that we implement during the recruitment process, and we are definitely able to test for things like cultural bias, gender [00:39:40] bias in testing, and realign tests to really be the best example for recruitment rather than just thinking we've used it for 20 years, we're going to continue using it.[00:39:50] 

[00:39:50] Amanda Flacks: But I definitely think that race is something that's lagging behind. I think that other areas of diversity have definitely taken a step forward. And, it's even now today we're having a [00:40:00] discussion around race because we say ethnic minorities. Let's be quite clear. ethnic majority in the world, just ethnic minority in the [00:40:10] UK.

[00:40:10] Amanda Flacks: Let's set that narrative straight for a start. White people are the minority in the world. We just happen to be the majority in this country. And 

[00:40:19] Barbara Banda: thank you for that. [00:40:20] And if there was one thing that you would say to somebody listening today, someone who's struggling to have a kind of conversation around what would you say to them?

[00:40:28] Barbara Banda: Be curious. [00:40:30] 

[00:40:30] Amanda Flacks: Ask questions. Don't shy away from it. And there's ways of asking questions where I think the difficulty is sometimes people ask a question and it comes across as judgmental. You think [00:40:40] about someone saying, Oh, how long have you been here? There's an assumption there that because your skin color is different, that you're actually not born in this country, so they've asked what they think is a curious [00:40:50] question.

[00:40:50] Amanda Flacks: but they've covered it in judgment and assumption and stereotypes. So it's really useful to say to people, I'd love to know more about your background. I'd love to know more about your [00:41:00] heritage and culture. I love learning about different cultures, different traditions, different histories that families have, because I genuinely enjoy thinking, oh, [00:41:10] never heard that before.

[00:41:11] Amanda Flacks: Tell me more. And I think that if we just approach things with more a voice of curiosity. I think that white people have to accept that [00:41:20] sometimes we're going to say something, we're going to get it wrong, and you might be corrected. That's okay. It's okay to make a mistake and say, I've learned from [00:41:30] that, and I'm going to move on from it.

[00:41:31] Amanda Flacks: It's not done with the purpose of humiliation. It's done with saying, I've had enough of someone saying the wrong thing to me, and I really want you to say the right thing.[00:41:40] If I came up to you and misgendered you, if I assumed something about you, you would correct me. And it's no different around race where people are [00:41:50] allowed to say, that's not my background.

[00:41:51] Amanda Flacks: This is, that's not my culture, my heritage. And it's okay to have someone say, I would prefer you say this. It's not done with the [00:42:00] intent of humiliation. It's just done so we can have a great conversation and really connect honestly. So I think that we definitely need to get better at being told. [00:42:10] That's not right.

[00:42:11] Amanda Flacks: And accepting sometimes we're going to get it wrong, myself included, and I've been corrected so many times, but I've learned from it. So Amanda, 

[00:42:19] Barbara Banda: [00:42:20] thank you so much. And just as we're getting to the end of what's been a really great conversation, I just want to share something with you. When I was [00:42:30] introduced to you, Amanda, the introduction that I got was, Amanda is this white woman and she's a white woman who talks about race in a way that I haven't heard [00:42:40] any other white woman talk about race.

[00:42:42] Barbara Banda: That was the introduction I got to you. And that's certainly been my experience today. A real sense that you get it. [00:42:50] And I know those words get it, the kind of words that are thrown about quite a lot in this field. I found it really fascinating to hear [00:43:00] all that you've talked about from your perspective, but I want to take a moment now to look forwards, and I know that you're currently in the process of moving roles, [00:43:10] so I'm inviting you to think into the future and think about what would happen if I met you again for another Conversations five years from now.

[00:43:19] Barbara Banda: [00:43:20] What would you like to be different? If I was to ask you, What could we do differently? What would X, Y, and Z be? The things that we could focus on. What would they be [00:43:30] for you, Amanda? 

[00:43:31] Amanda Flacks: I would like it to be normal that if we sit down at a table and everyone looks like you, sounds like you, and thinks like you, someone stands up and says, I'm going to find a different [00:43:40] table because this isn't a table for me.

[00:43:42] Amanda Flacks: That's where I want us to be. I want us to have honest conversations without there being the fear of appraisal. I want people to [00:43:50] educate themselves and understand that difference is fantastic. It's interesting. I don't want to be an automaton where everyone's the same as me. I want someone to sit down and say to me, Amanda, [00:44:00] that's your perspective.

[00:44:01] Amanda Flacks: You've got it wrong. I love that. I love being told that I've missed the point. And often I do. And I would really love other people to have the [00:44:10] confidence to go. I just want to be curious. I want to connect. I want to have conversations. I want to understand that the world has a perspective on me. And sometimes it's right.

[00:44:19] Amanda Flacks: [00:44:20] Sometimes it's wrong, and I'm going to tell you it's wrong, and to not try and diminish ourselves into the perspective that others have, so I know when I was reading your book you put [00:44:30] down softening, I can definitely resonate with softening myself for other people because, I look a certain way and the assumption is I must have the intellect of a squashed apricot, [00:44:40] and, it's about saying, no, I'm not going to diminish myself to make you feel comfortable.

[00:44:44] Amanda Flacks: I'm going to be my true authentic self. I'm not going to self silence. I'm going to have the confidence to [00:44:50] go, no, I really do have an opinion about that and I'm going to say it. And it's definitely not about me continuing to square. And I, when I saw that in your book, I [00:45:00] 100 percent resonated with squaring, trying to make myself fit into the narrative of leaders must look like this, they must behave like [00:45:10] this, and therefore I must be absolutely the same.

[00:45:13] Amanda Flacks: I have throughout my entire career been a bit of an oddball. I have, I've told people, like people have told me over the years that [00:45:20] I'm too kind. I'm too nice to work in HR. Gosh, what a judgment on HR. You shouldn't have to have kindness balanced against [00:45:30] being seen as being professional. I can absolutely be a kind person, but I know my stuff, and I'm going to stick to my guns, and I'm going to do what's right.

[00:45:38] Amanda Flacks: So I hope in five years [00:45:40] time people do the right thing, that they work with integrity, and I hope that they can bring their true authentic selves to the workplace without fear of appraisal. [00:45:50] 

[00:45:50] Barbara Banda: Excellent. Fantastic, Amanda. Thank you very much for having this conversation with me today. Thank you for exchanging your views and also for sharing so much of [00:46:00] yourself with the audience today.

[00:46:02] Barbara Banda: Amanda Flax, thank you very much. 

[00:46:04] Amanda Flacks: Thank you.

[00:46:09] Barbara Banda: Thank you [00:46:10] so much for listening to The Model Black. These conversations mean so much to me and they're so important in helping change to happen. If you've enjoyed what [00:46:20] you've listened to, please rate, review, follow, subscribe and share. This helps other people find the show and it means you won't miss a thing.

[00:46:29]Barbara Banda: If [00:46:30] you'd like to find out more information about my book, The Model Black, you can find more information in the podcast description.[00:46:40]