Episode Four: Levelling the Playing Field: We are not asking for special favours in Conversation with Tony Burnett
Shownotes
Tony Burnett recounts his compelling journey from a mixed-race childhood in Bolton to becoming a renowned business leader and diversity champion. He opens up about his personal encounters with racism, both on the football pitch and in his early career in the business sector. This episode goes beyond Tony's story; it delves into the history of his family, offering listeners an understanding of his heritage and its impact on personal identity.
Having previously held senior roles at organisations like West Midlands Police, Ford Motor Company, Lloyds Banking Group, and Diageo, Tony brings a wealth of experience to the discussion. He talks candidly about allyship, the tangible steps he's taken to create more inclusive work environments, and his vision for a more inclusive football community.
Barbara and Tony's conversation is an essential listen for anyone interested in the intersection of sports, business, and diversity. It’s not just about overcoming adversity; it’s about understanding the power of diversity and inclusion and how these forces can transform sports and workplaces alike.
You can find Tony Burnett here.
You can find Barbara Banda here.
The Model Black by Barbara Banda
Music by Maiwa Banda.
Transcription
[00:00:00] Barbara Banda: Hello, I'm Barbara Bander, and this is The Model Black, [00:00:10] a podcast about equity at work. This podcast series aims to create a space where we can have open and positive conversations [00:00:20] around race and difference in the world of work. My ultimate goal is to create more inclusive and equitable workplaces. [00:00:30] As we do, that achieving equity at work is very much a journey and not a destination.
[00:00:35] Barbara Banda: During this podcast series, we're going to have conversations with experts from [00:00:40] across the globe, exploring what we can all do to make our workplaces more equitable. My guest today is Tony Burnett. [00:00:50] Tony is currently chief executive of Kick It Out, an organization that tackles all forms of discrimination in football.
[00:00:58] Barbara Banda: Tony has held senior [00:01:00] positions across a range of organizations from West Midlands Police to Ford Motor Company to Lloyds Banking Group to Diageo. Tony has also got [00:01:10] many years of experience as a diversity and inclusion consultant supporting public and private sector organizations [00:01:20] across the UK, Ireland and in African countries.
[00:01:24] Barbara Banda: A very warm welcome to you today, Tony. Hi
[00:01:27] Tony Burnett: Barbara, thanks very much for having me
[00:01:28] Barbara Banda: on. No, it's [00:01:30] great to have you here. And Tony, as I've mentioned, you've worked with a whole host of companies, and I'm really intrigued to hear about some of the changes that you've brought [00:01:40] about in those organisations.
[00:01:42] Barbara Banda: But just ahead of that, Tony, I want to hear more about you. You're a mixed race lad from Bolton. [00:01:50] How did you make it here? What's your story? I
[00:01:54] Tony Burnett: could take the whole podcast actually, Barbara. Yes, I grew up in Bolton, quite a [00:02:00] challenging childhood with dad from Barbados, mum, white British. They actually met because my grandma was as a lot of African Caribbean people that came from the Caribbean [00:02:10] at the time, she was an auxiliary in hospital and my mum was a nurse there and my dad.
[00:02:14] Tony Burnett: I used to pick my grandma up from from work and she gave my, he gave a lift to my mum one day actually. So she was [00:02:20] friends with my grandma before, which is an interesting way of doing things, before she met my dad. And the rest, as we say, is kind of history. But yeah, so grew up in Bolton, the [00:02:30] only, only black or mixed heritage family in the area and quite a tough upbringing.
[00:02:35] Tony Burnett: Two, two down terraced house in a really working class environment, but lots of [00:02:40] positive things as well. We grew up. In a really close knit environment as the four of us, which became five when my younger sister was born in our family. But very early on, we understood that we were different [00:02:50] and the need to protect ourselves in that environment and some of the challenges that we're going to face.
[00:02:54] Tony Burnett: My first memory of realizing that was four years old in school. Been an interesting background. [00:03:00] Yeah.
[00:03:00] Barbara Banda: Tell us a bit more about that, Tony. You said you were four years old. That was a very young age to, to really start to realise that you're different. What [00:03:10] happened?
[00:03:10] Tony Burnett: I came home from nursery. I remember the, bizarrely, your strange memories.
[00:03:13] Tony Burnett: I was wearing a teddy bear t shirt, bizarrely. I remember the t shirt because it was on my favourites at the time. I was in, in nursery [00:03:20] school, junior school. And somebody called me I'm assuming I can use quite specific terms. Whatever they called you, what did they call you? Somebody called me a nignog, [00:03:30] which is it was a common term at the time.
[00:03:33] Tony Burnett: But essentially I went home, didn't think anything of it. And I was playing with my dad at night and I remember repeating the turn to my dad. [00:03:40] who looked horrified. I just remember the look of horror on his face. And he sat me down and talked to me about, race for the first time in language that I could understand as a four year old and why that wasn't appropriate and why I [00:03:50] shouldn't say it and why my friend, what reason could he have for saying it?
[00:03:54] Tony Burnett: So it was I think I remember it because it was the first time that I'd realized that I was different. And actually that wasn't going to be[00:04:00] a hugely positive thing in the environment I was growing up in.
[00:04:02] Barbara Banda: Yes, I see. So you grew up in Bolton, and as you said, your dad's from Barbados, and you've got a white British mother, as you've [00:04:10] mentioned.
[00:04:10] Barbara Banda: And you obviously did well at school, Tony, or did you? Perhaps you can tell me a bit more about it, because you've ended up doing really senior roles in [00:04:20] industry. So it feels like you made a very big leap from school through to being very senior in organizations. So tell us a bit about [00:04:30] how that developed for you.
[00:04:31] Barbara Banda: School
[00:04:31] Tony Burnett: was secondary school in particular was quite a challenging time. I passed my 11 plus went to grammar school, but in midway through third year, we became a [00:04:40] comprehensive and the grammar school was in the probably toughest and most challenging area of Bolton. So when we became a comprehensive, we almost went from, it felt like from being educated to survival [00:04:50] literally overnight as we were joined by lots of other kids from who didn't really have a focus on education.
[00:04:55] Tony Burnett: And that's not necessarily an excuse, but, so I came out with five GCSEs, not [00:05:00] particularly good at all. But I look back on that time now as as a time of, as I say, of survival, really. My two best friends at school became drug addicts. One in particular had a [00:05:10] 20, 30 year battle with drug addiction.
[00:05:11] Tony Burnett: So it was a difficult and challenging time. The thing that I guess saved me from going down a similar path was football. I played a lot of football at the time and I was involved in [00:05:20] the, it's not, it's the academy system now, but it was more school boy football then with Manchester city and then Huddersfield town trials and various things.
[00:05:27] Tony Burnett: So that, that kind of saved me a little
[00:05:28] Barbara Banda: bit. You're spending a lot of [00:05:30] time playing football. So did you get a bit famous, Tony or did you, tell us how that
[00:05:35] Tony Burnett: progressed. My only claim to fame, Barbara, is that I was a long term [00:05:40] trialist at Huddersfield Town when I was 17. And we played at Anfield, we played Liverpool in the first round of the FA Youth Cup, so we beat them.
[00:05:47] Tony Burnett: And the only other very minor claim to fame is that I was [00:05:50] a trialist at Bournemouth as well, bizarrely. So I met Harry Redknapp, not that you have a clue who I am, as a kid on trial, and yeah, there's three of us, four, four players for [00:06:00] two places, and he selected two others, so
[00:06:02] Barbara Banda: and the rest is history, because you became a business leader.
[00:06:06] Tony Burnett: The rest is history. Yeah, exactly that. But, the on the [00:06:10] educational front, I realized actually, as I started progressing in in business life, the lack of education was holding me back both in terms of my own personal development, but also in terms of the [00:06:20] access to opportunities. And so I did I did a distance learning post grad diploma at Leicester university degree level.
[00:06:26] Tony Burnett: And then I went and did my master's degree at at Liverpool university part [00:06:30] time at evenings in my mid twenties. And that was really a catalyst for future. future success. I was able to get into organizations like Diageo that wouldn't have looked at me [00:06:40] before that because I hadn't got the educational qualifications and despite the
[00:06:43] Barbara Banda: experience.
[00:06:44] Barbara Banda: And you've had a truly fascinating career, Tony, because as we've talked about before, your early [00:06:50] years were spent very much as a leader in business and you didn't actually move into the equity, diversity and inclusion world [00:07:00] immediately. You worked in business. Tell us a bit more
[00:07:03] Tony Burnett: about that. Yeah. So my other career was commercial and fast moving consumer goods.
[00:07:07] Tony Burnett: We with in sales initially [00:07:10] with J's J's didn't manufacture things like J's fluid and blue, as well as a lot of private label products for the major supermarket chain. So I grew up in that world really as a [00:07:20] trained kind of business lead and business negotiator. And ended up at Diageo in exactly that kind of role quickly progressed.
[00:07:26] Tony Burnett: Actually, I joined Diageo looking after their Asda business, which was [00:07:30] tens of millions at the time. And then I ended up running their retail sector business. So I had all of the, their retail accounts and the teams reporting into me. At 31 years old, I I had [00:07:40] quite a big job when I was perceived as being a high potential talent in Diageo, but I guess when things happen quite quickly and the.
[00:07:47] Tony Burnett: I guess the two bits I pick out here, Barbara, the first one is [00:07:50] when I reflect on that time, a lot of it was ego driven, because I think one of the things that affects leaders in our space and leaders from our backgrounds is sales was really appealing because [00:08:00] it was one of the most objective professions I could have chosen to prove myself.
[00:08:05] Tony Burnett: Forget the subjectivity, just look at the numbers. And it was really clear to me. And I learned [00:08:10] early on in my career that's. I loved that about sales. Actually, you can call me what you want. You can pretend I'm not doing well. Look at the numbers. And I always outperformed and out delivered.
[00:08:19] Tony Burnett: I [00:08:20] think then in, when I reached 30, 31, when I was in Diageo was when I started to question what's this for actually, and who am I trying to prove something to? And that's when I had my [00:08:30] introspective phase in my life where I really started looking at what am I doing this for and I have nothing to prove to anyone actually, other than me as a human being.
[00:08:38] Barbara Banda: Yeah, it's interesting [00:08:40] you say that Tony because one of the things that certainly came up in the research that I did for my book is that when you're black you do feel that need to work [00:08:50] that bit harder. Was that partly, I'm guessing, was that somewhere deep in your psyche, that you were trying to prove something?
[00:08:59] Barbara Banda: Tell me about it. [00:09:00] Was it about proving that as a black man, you could be as good as everyone else?
[00:09:04] Tony Burnett: It was, I had a Again, by the way, I'll just be honest with you. I had a huge ego when I was young. [00:09:10] So one of the things that my dad instilled in both myself and my sister was this notion that you absolutely got to work harder, but you were better because you are better.
[00:09:19] Tony Burnett: I [00:09:20] remember one of my early line managers in sales saying to me, the way you succeed in this industry is when everyone else is going home at the end of the evening, you go and do another call. Go and sell more. And I took that through [00:09:30] my career. I knew whatever profession I was in, and particularly as I think as you rise through the ranks, when your competition is probably equally as talented, equally intelligent, the one thing I could always [00:09:40] guarantee was they'll never work as hard as me.
[00:09:41] Tony Burnett: And therefore I will always deliver more. And in industries, therefore, The evidence of delivery such as sales is really clear. It's a black and white piece of [00:09:50] paper on a P& L. I did really well quite early, but it was literally, my whole career has been 14, 15 hour days without a question whenever it was needed and whatever day of the week it was needed.
[00:09:59] Tony Burnett: So
[00:09:59] Barbara Banda: what I'm [00:10:00] hearing is you're highly driven and that's fantastic that your dad was able to instill that in you from a very early age. So Tony, now you're successful in business. You've [00:10:10] got this great career in Diageo. And at some stage you ended up moving into a kind of diversity and inclusion role.
[00:10:17] Barbara Banda: Again, tell us a bit more about how that [00:10:20] shift happened and what motivated you.
[00:10:22] Tony Burnett: Art of it was just the introspective phase that I went through in life was because I think you can only live on ego and be driven by ego for so [00:10:30] long as a human being, otherwise you end up. in a really interesting place.
[00:10:34] Tony Burnett: So when I started looking at, what's this all about? Who am I? And I started looking internally. I went on journey. So I really [00:10:40] started exploring for the first time, the black history of my family. So reading lots of stuff from James Baldwin through to CLR James, through, all the kind of historical context to [00:10:50] Booker T.
[00:10:51] Tony Burnett: Washington, W. E. DuBois, Maya Angelou. And I started really understanding the heritage of the black side of my family, where we came from and the [00:11:00] struggles. And then I started putting into context some of the things I probably buried over the years. I remember my first role, my first business role, my nickname was Pat Boone and I hadn't got a clue [00:11:10] why people call me Pat Boone until months into the organization.
[00:11:13] Tony Burnett: And after that, when people I read the Sniggers and understood what it meant, I didn't have the courage as a, someone in my kind [00:11:20] of early twenties to challenge them. People in power, but and there were all kinds of aggressions like that, micro and macro aggressions throughout my career that I'd ignored.
[00:11:29] Tony Burnett: [00:11:30] And when I started really understanding who I am and where I came from, I just decided I'm not going to ignore this stuff anymore, actually this needs tackling. And it felt like that was the direction I needed to go in [00:11:40] to pursue some of that.
[00:11:41] Barbara Banda: And you stayed in industry then, so you decided to pursue, to continue in that kind of direction.
[00:11:48] Barbara Banda: And things [00:11:50] happen to you at work, and you just get your head down, don't you? You don't think about it. You have all these microaggressions flung at you, and it didn't [00:12:00] affect you partly because you didn't know what was going on. But once you knew what was going on, what was the point at which you left?
[00:12:07] Barbara Banda: Just give us a sense of how that worked out for you, [00:12:10] Tony.
[00:12:10] Tony Burnett: I don't think there was a pivotal moment. I think I reached a point where, especially when I went on the kind of self awareness journey and really started to read extensively on, on our [00:12:20] history and some of the kind of the struggles that we've had.
[00:12:22] Tony Burnett: And it was a growing awareness, but it was also growing confidence, actually, because what I took from all that history is a confidence about who I am. Not [00:12:30] less than because I think one of the negative things about being ego driven, having to prove yourself by working harder and delivering numbers is it comes from quite a negative place, which is I need to prove I'm as good as, or [00:12:40] I need to prove I'm better than.
[00:12:41] Tony Burnett: And when you get to a point next to where you realize I don't need your approval, I am as good as, I was able to start looking at some of the other things I wanted to break down and [00:12:50] really help others. Get to a point actually where you don't walk around in an organization with your head down, you're not deferential to the chief exec or whoever, because why would we be, again, one of my earliest [00:13:00] memories of my father actually was my father came to Bolton and ended up working as a weaver in a mill.
[00:13:06] Tony Burnett: And occasionally we'd go and pick him up or go and meet him from work. And I always [00:13:10] remember how deferentially was to supervisors and managers. And even then at a really early age, again, eight, nine, I remember just thinking, I'm never going to be calling people mister. In that way, in [00:13:20] that kind of doff my cap, really differentiate.
[00:13:22] Tony Burnett: And that's not respect to my dad. I've got huge respect for my dad. And I know that the context and the time was different, but I think again, on reflection, I [00:13:30] had to get to a point where I understood myself well enough. And I was confident enough in myself as a human being of equal stature to get to that point where I thought, and then [00:13:40] I didn't realize what I was doing work wise.
[00:13:42] Tony Burnett: I wasn't fulfilled by, it was ticking a box from an ego perspective, but it wasn't fulfilling my spirit or my soul. Yeah,
[00:13:49] Barbara Banda: That's quite an [00:13:50] interesting process that I'm hearing that you went through. And as you were talking about it, I was reflecting a bit on my own experience, because I think mine came a bit [00:14:00] later.
[00:14:00] Barbara Banda: I had it much later in my career. I'm interested that yours came at that stage. So you moved into the equity, diversity and [00:14:10] inclusion area and you started to make a difference. So tell us about what you did, because I know you've had some terrific roles. I know you did some fantastic work at [00:14:20] Ford.
[00:14:20] Barbara Banda: So tell us about the work that you did in that area.
[00:14:23] Tony Burnett: The Ford bit was my first real foray into this space. And again, I was given a chance, by a guy called Surendra Sharma, who's still a [00:14:30] friend. But Ford had some serious issues going back into the nineties where Dagenham truck plant was overtly racist.
[00:14:36] Tony Burnett: There were some horrific challenges going on with the Dagenham truck plant, often [00:14:40] supported by union collusion. I have to say at the time, there was a case where essentially Ford put out a recruitment advertisement and a Sikh colleague on the advertisement was [00:14:50] Made to look white in the ad when it was played in the UK.
[00:14:53] Tony Burnett: So Forward ended up being investigated by the Commission for Racial Equality. And so they had to do something about their challenges, which is why they [00:15:00] ended up recruiting people like me. And it was, again, interesting in that because it wasn't driven by almost a kind of ethical, this is a good thing to do, so we should get on with it.
[00:15:08] Tony Burnett: They had to drive [00:15:10] change because the CRE were threatening legal action if they didn't. And so that gave us a mandate to do some really serious stuff, going into each of the cases of discrimination, looking at them on their [00:15:20] merits, taking action against the perpetrators, holding unions to account.
[00:15:23] Tony Burnett: We drove some really kind of significant change as well as the other stuff that builds the longer term culture, which is around [00:15:30] education and how do you Change people's mindsets. The first thing we had to do was find out the extent of the problem and make sure that the people who are perpetrating this challenges were dealt with and exited from the [00:15:40] organization.
[00:15:41] Tony Burnett: But my learning curve around the Ford experience was that you have to have a mandate. You have to have a mandate to do this work in a serious way. And our mandate then was [00:15:50] legally driven. It was driven by the threat of legal action that the CRE were providing to Ford. So we managed to get some really good, some excellent change delivered as part of that process.
[00:15:59] Barbara Banda: [00:16:00] So you had a legal mandate there, and were you able also to change the culture? What I mean is, were you [00:16:10] able to get senior leaders on board to this, committed to this over the long term? Because I think it's great doing what you did, but what about this in the [00:16:20] longer
[00:16:20] Tony Burnett: term? This was where my business background came in really handily, actually, because I went in as an ED and I lead but I got a sales and marketing background as a commercial guy.
[00:16:29] Tony Burnett: So I [00:16:30] started digging into some of the commercial information and I looked into one particular segment, which I don't know what they call it now, but it used to be called the B car segment. And if the people are as old as me cars that [00:16:40] vehicles that fell into that segment were Ford Fiesta, the old Renault Clio, I think Renault five and just moving towards Clio at that time.
[00:16:46] Tony Burnett: Yeah. And that was predominantly a sector that was dominated [00:16:50] by female drivers, essentially. So I looked at that and I saw that we've been losing market share at Ford hand over fist for many years. And I thought this is, again, as a commercial guy, I thought the [00:17:00] first thing you do is interrogate why that is.
[00:17:02] Tony Burnett: So a couple of things we did. First one was we sent some female colleagues into our dealership network. With money to spend on cars, [00:17:10] because I wanted to understand what was happening at the point of purchase. What happens when you go in to buy a vehicle? And what came back was horrific. Our only female senior engineer at the time went into one of our dealership [00:17:20] networks and said, I've got 15, 000 to spend, I want this kind of spec.
[00:17:23] Tony Burnett: The salesperson I remember very clearly said to her, Would you like to come back at weekend when your husband's with you, love? [00:17:30] And this is a woman who designed vehicles probably knew more than anybody in that dealership about the spec of cars. And there were similar stories like that across the dealership network.
[00:17:38] Tony Burnett: So I knew we had a problem. [00:17:40] And then I put a value to the lost sales. So the market share that we'd lost and it was tens of millions in profit, not just sales. And so I pulled together what then was a kind of [00:17:50] our early business case. The other thing I linked was up until. The early 2000s, you never saw women featured in despite the fact women influenced so many purchase decisions when it [00:18:00] came to vehicles, you never saw women in vehicle ads.
[00:18:02] Tony Burnett: It was always male drivers, like the driving rally cars. And, it was very much your nonsense. And so I took a whole package to the [00:18:10] board that said, this is what we're losing. This is why we're losing it. And if we can regain our market share in these proportions, this is what it will do to your bottom line.
[00:18:17] Tony Burnett: And the fascinating thing for me was we [00:18:20] got the leadership buy in like that. We got money to spend instantly and we got leadership commitment. And we got leadership commitment because they could see the value, the bottom line value [00:18:30] in getting better when it comes to inclusion. And so we were able to drive change from that perspective really quickly as well.
[00:18:36] Tony Burnett: Right.
[00:18:36] Barbara Banda: So you've got this, you've got a partly legal [00:18:40] mandate and you've got the business case. And over what kind of period of time? How long did it take you to make something like this [00:18:50] happen? Because there'll be people, there'll be people listening to this podcast thinking, my organization has got a long way to go.
[00:18:57] Barbara Banda: Was this weeks? Was this months? [00:19:00] Give us a sense of timing. And give us also a sense of what it is that actually helps to speed something like this up. I
[00:19:08] Tony Burnett: think it depends on the driver. [00:19:10] The first driver was the legal driver, which was the, they had a really, about a business case for change, which was the legal case, which was the threat from the CRE.
[00:19:17] Tony Burnett: That was the initial. And the, but the secondary aspect was [00:19:20] that only take, like in any walk of life, in any context, fear only gets you so far. And I'm always conscious of that. It was something my dad always again, drilled into me. So we had to find another [00:19:30] lever it had for this to be a long term project and part of the business DNA, we had to find the core and the core was how do we sell more vehicles through ED and I, [00:19:40] and then the women's project led to other projects.
[00:19:42] Tony Burnett: Like for example, we looked at vehicle ownership amongst the Asian community around the M 25, far more likely to have two vehicles. And at the time. [00:19:50] because they were far more likely to own retail outlets. The second vehicle was usually a van. But when, again, when you looked at the market share dropped off massively because of the recruitment [00:20:00] advertisement I'd mentioned, which was the seat guy that the community knew had been airbrushed out of an ad and also a case that Ford had lost against a chap called Mr.
[00:20:08] Tony Burnett: Palmer for race discrimination. [00:20:10] And again, when you really clear about the stats and we put those in front of the board to say. What's going on in this organization is having an impact on the number of vehicles you sell to female consumers, but also to the [00:20:20] Asian community. That's why you've got to get better.
[00:20:22] Tony Burnett: That is the stuff that really drives change because they can see the bottom line. I'm not saying that's right by the way, because there should always be the [00:20:30] people want to do the right thing for the right reasons, but it's unbelievable. I never lost that kind of that awareness of the way to drive real awareness amongst and commitment amongst leadership is showing the bottom [00:20:40] line and demonstrate how they can get there.
[00:20:41] Barbara Banda: Yeah, and I think this is absolutely fascinating because we talk about this, don't we? We talk about this idea that there's a moral case [00:20:50] and there's a business case. And, clearly, often in that case, the business case is the one that wins. The business case tends to always win. And, [00:21:00] we really need to be very much aware of the moral case as well.
[00:21:03] Barbara Banda: And it's interesting you said that, because when you were at Ford, there was clearly some kind of [00:21:10] financial case, but you also, you did some work with the police, didn't you? There you must have had to build a different kind of case.
[00:21:18] Tony Burnett: Yeah, this is really interesting, actually. [00:21:20] It depends what you call a business case.
[00:21:21] Tony Burnett: So in a essentially in a private sector setting, the business case is about P& L and it's about how you sell more product. I think in a case like the police, the business case is [00:21:30] even more critical because for me, the business case is about, if you think of the way that the UK policing is set up, it relies on the legitimacy.
[00:21:39] Tony Burnett: of the [00:21:40] community. Legitimacy is built on trust. So if you haven't got trust as a police organization, you haven't got legitimacy. And then that relies on various aspects of a [00:21:50] model that you can, that we can talk about, which is called procedural justice. So that the way the police conduct their duties in dealing with the public, whether that's stop and search, use of force or whatever, has a [00:22:00] direct impact on levels of trust within the communities.
[00:22:02] Tony Burnett: It's really logical, isn't it? And then that level of trust has a direct impact on whether the community thinks the police have Now the key challenge for policing [00:22:10] is if legitimacy breaks down and communities don't think the police have legitimacy, we've not got a leg to stand on. The police has not got a leg to stand on because law and order breaks down.
[00:22:19] Tony Burnett: It's not an [00:22:20] American model. Our police officers quite rightly don't carry guns. The whole ethos of the police in this country is the legitimacy, which is granted by the public and So the need to build trust. And when I see what's going on in, [00:22:30] in the Met just now, obviously, and it's not just the Met, there's lots of other forces.
[00:22:34] Tony Burnett: The risk is huge. The business cases is massive. It's beyond anything I've ever come across before [00:22:40] because they've lost the trust and legitimacy with a huge part of the community. And that is massively dangerous to maintain in law and order.
[00:22:47] Barbara Banda: Yes. So I guess. In the long run, [00:22:50] you're right, there is a business case, whatever the organization.
[00:22:54] Barbara Banda: If we look at the police now, there clearly are still challenges. What were [00:23:00] you able to shift? Where were you able to see the changes? Tell us a bit more about what you were able to influence, Tony, the changes that you were able to bring about in your [00:23:10] time.
[00:23:10] Tony Burnett: Some of this was about discovery, but some of it was about doing things and there are some simple things I think that people often overlook.
[00:23:16] Tony Burnett: So there's some process stuff, which is really simple. We did some stuff around, [00:23:20] if you look at promotion processes, for example, in Westmids, we hadn't had people from black or Asian backgrounds promoted from inspector to chief inspector rank for a long period of time. [00:23:30] And we looked at what the process that people are going through and the key trigger was line manager sign off.
[00:23:36] Tony Burnett: So you're in an organization where people join, typically stay for 30 [00:23:40] years to build up an impression of someone's performance, which isn't always evidence based. It might be based on something they saw 10 years ago from an individual or it might be based on a personal bias. So [00:23:50] the line manager sign off aspect on whether somebody can apply for the promotion process or not was key.
[00:23:55] Tony Burnett: We took that out. We implemented an assessment center process where officers had [00:24:00] to go through an assessment center which assessment center with a diverse range of assessors, assessing against the criteria and evidence based criteria promotions from black and [00:24:10] Asian people going from inspectors chief inspector went up by hundreds of percentage points, and it was merit based.
[00:24:15] Tony Burnett: You just take out the bias, you take out the opportunity for people to manipulate the [00:24:20] system and it's about merit. And this, it's one thing I'm pushing now in football, we talk about and everyone talks about the lack of career progression for black coaches in [00:24:30] particular into the management arena.
[00:24:31] Tony Burnett: And there's a really simple solution for this for me, which is talent map the candidate pool who wants to get into management because at the minute the tap on the shoulder, such and [00:24:40] such, your body knows X, Y, or Zed. Is the predominant recruitment model for people moving from coaching into management when we've got evidence, we know what good management looks like.
[00:24:48] Tony Burnett: And if we can produce a [00:24:50] capability framework, then we can assess people against it. And then we know exactly who's the most talented people to be getting the jobs. The other thing really, sorry, [00:25:00] bouncing about a little in policing was around the way that, that colleagues use the powers. And so we've all, we're all aware of discrepancy in terms of stop and search [00:25:10] rates, use of force rates, et cetera, for people from black communities.
[00:25:14] Tony Burnett: And my colleague did a huge piece of research looking at what are the drivers for that. One to one [00:25:20] interviews, really detailed interviews with white male colleagues. And the biggest driver for the use of force in particular was the fear of the black man. And it's something that I know you've spoken about [00:25:30] before and we often talk about, but to see it on a piece of paper across so many people in black and white was really interesting.
[00:25:37] Tony Burnett: And if you look at a force like Westmids where [00:25:40] officers are being deployed in places like Hansworth, where it's a, a large black or Asian community. They're often joining from communities like Shrewsbury. They've been to school in middle class suburbs, where they never come into [00:25:50] contact with a black person.
[00:25:51] Tony Burnett: They're then put in a situation where they're confronted with urban young people, with a completely different way of life, and their automatic reaction is, [00:26:00] protect myself. And how do I do that? I'm going to use violence. I'm going to use my, what they call legitimate powers. And that issue has just never been tackled.
[00:26:07] Tony Burnett: It's just never been tackled. And until it [00:26:10] is tackled, it's going to continue.
[00:26:12] Barbara Banda: So that's right. There's still. quite a big challenge there, isn't there, within the police force? And, we know from the reports that [00:26:20] we hear, and particularly the ones we hear about the Met, that those challenges are still out there.
[00:26:24] Barbara Banda: So you were able to make some moves, you were able to make some great moves in terms [00:26:30] of helping people to get promoted, particularly people from different backgrounds. But I'm hearing that there are still some deep cultural problems that exist. I [00:26:40] think that's what I'm hearing you say. Tony, we've You've talked quite a lot about your career and I keep using this phrase, how you've tackled things.
[00:26:48] Barbara Banda: So whilst I'm using that [00:26:50] phrase, let's get into football. So you've tackled all these other problems and now you've moved from a business perspective from someone who's had P& L [00:27:00] responsibility. So tell us a bit how you've moved into this whole field of equity, diversity and inclusion within the football area.[00:27:10]
[00:27:10] Barbara Banda: Why football?
[00:27:11] Tony Burnett: I played football for many years and then I coached football at grassroots level for a number of years my son and various other teams. So I've always been passionate about [00:27:20] football, but I also, I was also passionate about football as a vehicle for change. One of the things I reflected on through my career playing football was that I'm still friends with a lot of the young men who were young [00:27:30] men at then at the time, actually not necessarily so young nowadays, over many years.
[00:27:34] Tony Burnett: And. It was just such a leveler, I never want to experience when through grassroots football, any [00:27:40] hostility or racism from my teammates in a changing room environment. And I know for a fact, actually having me in that environment, they will learn huge amounts about [00:27:50] black people and about me and about actually inclusion from their perspective.
[00:27:54] Tony Burnett: And over many years, actually, when playing together, we had a way to. a number of instances where I've been [00:28:00] experienced racism, whether it's from the supporters or from opposition players. I never once had to do anything. My teammates sorted it before it became an issue. Once it became an issue, actually, and it was [00:28:10] quite a challenge, but my teammates were always there on the front foot.
[00:28:13] Tony Burnett: to protect. And so I know that they take that behavior. That's not a one off. Those mental models they've built around protecting their friend [00:28:20] and making sure that, they called out as an advocate, that stuff is not appropriate. I know they took that back into the real world in their own lives and protected and dealt with other stuff that came up in a similar context.
[00:28:29] Tony Burnett: [00:28:30] So I think football is just such an important vehicle for getting that message across.
[00:28:34] Barbara Banda: So you experienced it then in other people. I guess we might call that allyship to an [00:28:40] extent in the kind of world that we work in. You experienced that positive allyship, and we know that there are still challenges in football, whether it's in the crowds, [00:28:50] whether it's just what you've just talked about with perhaps not having the right number of black coaches that we might imagine we should have.
[00:28:59] Barbara Banda: Where's your focus? [00:29:00] Tell us a bit more about that. Where are you trying to make a
[00:29:03] Tony Burnett: difference? There's three, three areas where we're trying to make a difference. First one is around advocating for change at the government [00:29:10] level. Actually, there's some legislation going through at the minute on the back of the family review.
[00:29:15] Tony Burnett: And we think we've got an opportunity, a one off opportunity in our lifetime to mandate [00:29:20] that football has to. do certain things when it comes to equality and diversity and put certain capability frameworks in place. So that's a huge opportunity. Education is something that [00:29:30] we've always been an advocate for, and we're really building presence in that space, particularly amongst school kids and trying to use our voice for that.
[00:29:36] Tony Burnett: And the other one is talent. We talk about fair representation. [00:29:40] And I'm a huge believer in that. And if I look at the stats across football, we haven't got anything like fair representation. Only two ways of really explaining this for me either. And I used to have the same [00:29:50] conversation in policing as well.
[00:29:51] Tony Burnett: Either you accept black people are less capable or there is something wrong with the system. And I don't [00:30:00] believe, and I've never met anybody actually who acknowledged that black people are less capable and there's something wrong with the system. And just two really clear examples of that for me in football.
[00:30:08] Tony Burnett: Premier League's 30 years [00:30:10] old now. In the 30 years of Premier League, there has been one black referee officiating in the Premier League. That was Uriah Rennie, and he retired in 2008. [00:30:20] Since then, there's not been a single black referee in the Premier League. In the 150 years now of cup competitions, FA Cup, The, various iterations of [00:30:30] the League Cup, there hasn't been a single black official that has refereed in any of those finals over 150 years.
[00:30:38] Tony Burnett: And so no one can [00:30:40] convince me that refereeing is a meritocracy in the same way that no one can convince me that the 45%. of players in the Premier League, translating into less than [00:30:50] 4 percent of manager and senior coach appointments is a meritocracy. It's just not, it's not possible. And so talent, I think, is a really fundamental battleground.
[00:30:58] Tony Burnett: And that's before I even [00:31:00] get, get onto any of the other statistics. There are many I could quote, but the other thing I'll just quickly mention, cause I know you'll cover this in other areas, Barbara is. Football's not unique, football operates in the [00:31:10] context of the broader society and every organization I've got, I've gone into for the last 25 years has had similar statistics.
[00:31:17] Tony Burnett: And so this is a challenge across the piece. As my [00:31:20] sister's a senior exec in the NHS. The NHS over 25 percent black and Asian managers less than 12 percent when it comes to senior leadership, and they've spent [00:31:30] millions on this problem over the years. And so it's a challenge, but I think we've got to get, that's probably for me, the area that I want to leave the lasting legacy because we have to change the landscape in [00:31:40] football, 45 percent of players.
[00:31:42] Tony Burnett: Elite players, the top players are black and that translates into fewer than 4 percent of managers. That's just not acceptable.
[00:31:49] Barbara Banda: [00:31:50] Fewer than 4 percent of managers. And you're right, Tony, this isn't just a football issue. This is very much a societal issue. And there's also [00:32:00] choices that need to be made.
[00:32:02] Barbara Banda: The extent to which you need to make a decision about which area you need to pick the area that you want to focus on. So if you're going to make [00:32:10] a shift, how do you start? And Tony, the reason I'm asking you this is because I'm actually quite shocked at the numbers that you've just quoted to me.
[00:32:19] Barbara Banda: I'm not a [00:32:20] great football watcher, I have to be honest, but I'm also quite surprised by those statistics. What do you think's the answer? And I'm not asking you here to give me some kind of simplistic [00:32:30] response. Where do we start? Where do we, where and how do we get things moving?
[00:32:34] Tony Burnett: The answer isn't hugely complicated to be honest, Barbara.
[00:32:37] Tony Burnett: I think it's never really about the answer. [00:32:40] It's about the will to do the right thing. And the reason I say that is because again, So we know where the players are. For example, it's really easy to understand what percentage of those players would want to be [00:32:50] managers because the pathway for player in player intermanagement is through the coaching badges.
[00:32:54] Tony Burnett: You've got to do your qualifications. And so years ago, the allegation was that black players just aren't doing the [00:33:00] qualifications. Now we know for a fight, that's not true. We know that black players are doing the qualifications and there are many black players that are qualified to move into role quite quickly.
[00:33:09] Tony Burnett: [00:33:10] It's not about that. It's about how do you get a fair recruitment process in place so that the right people get access to the opportunities, not just the people who follow the merry go round and the friend of a friend [00:33:20] and such buddy recommended. And that's what we've got to push for within football.
[00:33:23] Tony Burnett: I'm a really big advocate for strong HR process in football, which says if we know, for example, so the people who. We'll [00:33:30] get the top jobs all have this qualification called a pro license, and there are only a few hundred pro license qualified coaches in the country. We could very easily.
[00:33:39] Tony Burnett: All [00:33:40] those coaches through assessment centers to talent map and say we've got X percentage who are ready now. And of that, there'll probably be a percentage clearly of black coaches that are ready. And [00:33:50] that gives us a really clear merit based approach to identifying and putting people into place as opposed to.
[00:33:56] Tony Burnett: He did a great job 20 years ago at X Club and he worked with [00:34:00] Fred, so Fred knows him, so bring him in. So it's not necessarily about we don't know the answer, it's about having the will and the desire to do the right thing. And the only other thing just to quickly say on this Barbara is, [00:34:10] I'm so sick of over many years, I don't want to be negative on this, but in the NHS I remember working on a program years ago called Realising Potential.
[00:34:17] Tony Burnett: where the NHS threw millions, I know [00:34:20] my sister went through this as well, millions at trying to train and educate black and Asian leaders. And that always starts from the assumption that the problem is with the people who aren't getting [00:34:30] promoted because they're clearly not capable. And that's utter rubbish and I'm sick of having to refute that in organizations.
[00:34:35] Tony Burnett: The problem is very rarely with the people. in the organization. 99 times [00:34:40] out of 100, the problem is that the system is not meritocratic. And I know meritocracy is a utopian kind of vision that we're never going to get to, but we can certainly get a lot closer to it than we are [00:34:50] in football. Yes, and I
[00:34:51] Barbara Banda: can't agree with you more on that.
[00:34:53] Barbara Banda: And it's not about fixing black people. We often say that it's really very much about changing the system, [00:35:00] making it fairer for everyone to use, that word fair it's a word that we've all been brought up with. And I guess that's what you're trying to do to a certain extent in football [00:35:10] as well.
[00:35:11] Barbara Banda: And there's a lot of money in football, Tony, isn't it? So where does the will need to come from? Is it, as we look at it, as I see it from an [00:35:20] outsider, surely an organisation as powerful and as rich as football, if they want to change and they really want it to happen, surely it's
[00:35:28] Tony Burnett: going to happen.
[00:35:29] Tony Burnett: [00:35:30] Herein lies the problem. I think Barbara, in the earlier story we spoke about in terms of Ford and an organization that is already incredibly wealthy, that's generating [00:35:40] considerable revenue, showing a business case that says you can make more money is not really possible in this space. And so the case has to come from, unfortunately it has to come [00:35:50] From us, from the players, from the people who've got skin in this game, because actually you take away the black player representation, you take away the black supporters, Asian supporters, and the people [00:36:00] from underrepresented groups, then the Premier League is nowhere near as successful.
[00:36:03] Tony Burnett: Now we don't want to get down to a situation where we're threatening football with withdrawing our participation. Ultimately they [00:36:10] have to recognize that we're as valid stakeholders in this process. And if we don't start to see fairness, then our agenda might have to move from being supportive.
[00:36:18] Tony Burnett: to being far more confrontational. [00:36:20] But we'd rather be supportive and drive change. But if you force us to be confrontational, then that's exactly what we'll be. So
[00:36:25] Barbara Banda: yes, Tony, so there's conversations to be had out there. There are some [00:36:30] serious conversations to be had then within and across the whole kind of footballing world, across the whole footballing field, if I can use that analogy.
[00:36:39] Barbara Banda: Tony, [00:36:40] if I was going to speak to someone today, someone in the footballing world, and what I do know is that you've got a platform to do this all the time. So [00:36:50] imagine you're having a one to one conversation with them. What are you saying to them about what they can personally do as a kind of individual level?
[00:36:59] Barbara Banda: Because,[00:37:00] as we know, we can shout about it. Or, we can talk about it at a much broader level. What do you think would happen? Or what do you think should [00:37:10] happen? What would be your one to one conversation with someone about how you can really start to get things
[00:37:18] Tony Burnett: moving? I think [00:37:20] it depends where you're at.
[00:37:21] Tony Burnett: For leaders in organizations, I still find it really strange. And again, I've seen this everywhere that leaders are appointed without any ability [00:37:30] to understand, nevermind kind of leverage capability around inclusion. And some of the leadership examples I see, even people who recently promoted, I'm just thinking of one person I can't necessarily [00:37:40] name.
[00:37:40] Tony Burnett: I look at this individual in a very senior position and think. Not only do you not understand the smallest iota around the inclusion agenda, how have you got [00:37:50] your position? How have you been appointed into that role without any level of consideration in that regard? So I think the first thing is, actually, from a leadership perspective, we need to make sure that people who are getting [00:38:00] the jobs in leadership positions can evidence knowledge in this space and can understand and evidence How they've made a difference in organizations in 2023 leaders shouldn't be [00:38:10] appointed unless they can evidence that as a core capability.
[00:38:13] Tony Burnett: And the second bit really for me is common myth. We're not asking for special favors at all. And as well as I do, Barbara, it's [00:38:20] never about special favors. This is just about create a level playing field, give access to opportunity and. Black and Asian people will come through and black people come [00:38:30] through based on merit.
[00:38:31] Tony Burnett: There's nothing more complicated than that. So every time if you're in a position of appointing someone and you're doing it on the basis of, somebody, or you've met somebody, or you work [00:38:40] with somebody before you are stopping and blocking an opportunity. for somebody from an underrepresented group to come through based on merit.
[00:38:47] Tony Burnett: So that's the other thing I'd say is just reflect as an [00:38:50] individual and on, on how you're doing the things that, that will allow the best people to get through on merit.
[00:38:56] Barbara Banda: Yeah. Yeah. That makes complete sense because, as one of the things [00:39:00] that I talk about a lot is the importance of kind of changing the conversation that we're having, because if you have that one conversation with somebody, [00:39:10] they'll talk to somebody else.
[00:39:11] Barbara Banda: And if each of them just does one or two things differently, you're really starting to create a movement because that's as I said [00:39:20] earlier, what we're really trying to do is to change cultures. And that's essentially what you're trying to do in football. You're trying to change the culture of the institution of the organization.[00:39:30]
[00:39:30] Barbara Banda: So Tony, you've had a lot of experience and you've given me. Some great ideas. You've shared with our listeners some [00:39:40] terrific examples of both the challenges that you've had over the years and many of the successes you've had, many of the things that you've done to make a difference. So if we take a moment [00:39:50] now to look forward and thinking about your sense of what's going to shift in the world, not just in football, but in organizations more generally, [00:40:00] what do you think needs to happen?
[00:40:02] Barbara Banda: Anything over and above what we've already spoken about as we look forwards?
[00:40:07] Tony Burnett: Yeah, I think firstly, I'd just say in [00:40:10] football, I probably forgot to mention, there are some light at the end of the tunnel. I think I probably, so there's some really good people that have been appointed over the last 12 months that I'm really hoping in our spaces, [00:40:20] places like the Premier League and the FA.
[00:40:22] Tony Burnett: I'm hoping they get the space and they get the authority to drive the changes because there are some people that know what needs to be done now and the leadership just need to [00:40:30] listen to them and get on with what needs to be done. I think that on the bigger picture, Barbara, I'm really worried. I'll be honest with you.
[00:40:35] Tony Burnett: I'm worried about the macro political climate. Certainly over the last, and our figures bear this [00:40:40] out actually in terms of discrimination reports. I'm worried about the binary positions, the polarized conversations the way that, that all issues of race are being spoken about, particularly since Brexit [00:40:50] and also since George Floyd, we were.
[00:40:52] Tony Burnett: Obviously integral to the whole kind of movement in football and taking the knee. And I must have been asked 200 times about [00:41:00] whether we felt taking the knee was the right gesture. I was never once asked in an interview why players were taking the knee and what we felt were the issues that had to be addressed.
[00:41:09] Tony Burnett: for them to [00:41:10] not feel the need to take the knee and that worries me. We've also got governments in a government in place now that is, I think he's using really dangerous rhetoric when it comes to describing [00:41:20] people from different backgrounds and cultures, which is only going to lead to one thing.
[00:41:24] Tony Burnett: And I think we're seeing the shoots of that now in terms of culture wars and that's dangerous. And we see the effects of that in football.[00:41:30] It's okay. The Premier League, we're seeing that on social media abuse towards players in the Premier League. But if you're a 10 or 11 year old kid playing football in a park on a Saturday or Sunday morning, you [00:41:40] haven't got stewards protecting you.
[00:41:41] Tony Burnett: You haven't got all the protections. When somebody's using the n word or is throwing a punch at you like we see quite frequently because of the colour of your skin or your ethnic [00:41:50] background that is driven by a narrative that comes from an irresponsible government, then I worry about what we can do to drive real change.
[00:41:58] Tony Burnett: But I also think on the [00:42:00] back of that, it's more important than ever that we carry on the fight, actually, because we've got to tackle this irresponsible narrative that's coming from people in positions who should know better. So
[00:42:09] Barbara Banda: looking [00:42:10] ahead, we're working within this context and aren't we, whereas there is this political, whatever we want to call it, this kind of culture wars context, we're [00:42:20] working within this and within this, as you've also said, good people are being appointed.
[00:42:26] Barbara Banda: So on one hand, you've got concerns about. [00:42:30] How things are going to move forward. There is actually some hope.
[00:42:34] Tony Burnett: The hope is always there, actually. So the hope is we've got some good people. The hope is we had our [00:42:40] Raise Your Game conference a couple of weeks back where we got a load of talented young people, 300 talented young people from our communities.
[00:42:46] Tony Burnett: together. And I think that the young generation coming through now, I think one of the things I'm [00:42:50] always conscious of is not changing them with my lived experience of doom and gloom because they're not only incredibly talented, a lot of the, of our younger community coming through, they're [00:43:00] quite rightly expectant.
[00:43:01] Tony Burnett: They expect to be treated in the right way. They expect to have opportunities based on merit. And I think that is. That is the future. I genuinely do think that we've got a younger generation. I think [00:43:10] this is what was fascinating for me through the George Floyd, obviously the awful situation George Floyd three years ago was that for the first time actually I saw a black youth and youth from other [00:43:20] communities actually coming forward and saying this might have been your world, but it's certainly not going to be ours.
[00:43:24] Tony Burnett: And I think that's why I also think the government have got to be careful because they're trying to appeal now to a demographic, which [00:43:30] is my age and above. The younger generation coming through are not thinking in that way at all. And I'm really hopeful that they're going to sweep this aside and see it for what it is, which is nonsense, [00:43:40] and move towards a more meritocratic country and football will benefit from that.
[00:43:44] Tony Burnett: And it's
[00:43:45] Barbara Banda: very interesting what you say there, Tony, because on the one hand, as We have a [00:43:50] lived experience, and we want the next generation to be different. And on the other hand, we want to protect them. There's often this kind of tension that exists, isn't there, as we [00:44:00] look ahead. But it's good to hear that there is actually really some hope out there.
[00:44:04] Barbara Banda: And, Tony, given that there is some hope, what is it that you want to leave [00:44:10] the world of football, or the broader world? What would you want your legacy to be? When they look back and they say Tony made a difference here and,[00:44:20] I know you said earlier you were a man of ego, let's put you back into that.
[00:44:24] Barbara Banda: Let's get you a bit more egotistical talking about yourself. What would you like them to be saying about you, [00:44:30] about what you did, what you achieved?
[00:44:32] Tony Burnett: I think without being overly ambitious, I want to see more meritocratic systems. So my vision ultimately is [00:44:40] based on merit. I'd love to see a black manager of England football.
[00:44:43] Tony Burnett: I think that's the next step. We're not, we've been nowhere near it, but that for me would send such a huge message about [00:44:50] inclusion, about this country, about what we stand for and about the fact that black people can succeed on merit. Now we're so far away from that, given the lack of black managers in the senior league [00:45:00] that, that.
[00:45:01] Tony Burnett: It's a long journey, but that for me would be a fantastic achievement that would send such a positive message to so many young kids growing up in this country.
[00:45:08] Barbara Banda: So that's what you'd want to [00:45:10] leave. So is there anything else, Tony, that you'd want to say to our listeners, as they're really trying to think about how to have more positive conversations around [00:45:20] race and around difference more generally?
[00:45:23] Barbara Banda: in their workplaces as they themselves are trying to shift cultures. Is there anything else that you'd want to share with [00:45:30] them at this
[00:45:30] Tony Burnett: point? I think one of the things that comes out in your book actually Barbara, which had a really good read of last week and thank you for that, it was brilliant, is the really importance of in a world [00:45:40] that is consistently putting negative messages of Black people into the both overtly and covertly into the ecosystem.
[00:45:48] Tony Burnett: Finding your true centre, the [00:45:50] place where you can go to that you know who you are and you're comfortable in who you are and those messages don't get through in the same way is a really important, it was hugely important for me [00:46:00] and I know you talk about and we've spoken about people who've got to that point and you I think that's massive.
[00:46:05] Tony Burnett: And so I just said to people, if you've not gone on that journey yet, you're not really in a place where you've [00:46:10] looked inside and you're happy with who you are, then it's really important you do that because that's our only protection against the external is going inside and getting to a place where we're comfortable and safe [00:46:20] and secure in who we are as human beings.
[00:46:22] Tony Burnett: That's
[00:46:22] Barbara Banda: your message then. That's great. That's your message for black people, for people of colour. And what message might you leave our non black leaders with in [00:46:30] terms of moving forward? What might your message be for them, Tony?
[00:46:33] Tony Burnett: I remember having this conversation just after George Floyd, when again, it was the first shoots of some of the kind of polarisation of [00:46:40] opinion.
[00:46:40] Tony Burnett: So the first thing I'd say is, You're never going to understand the black experience. So please don't even attempt to understand the black experience. You're never going to [00:46:50] understand it. And if you can't understand it, then you haven't got the right to dismiss it or challenge it. So just listen to it.
[00:46:57] Tony Burnett: Believe your colleagues for what they're telling you. And when it [00:47:00] comes to their experience and use your leadership power. to make the work environment a fairer and more inclusive place for them. It's not your place to tell them that what they've experienced and lived [00:47:10] isn't real or it doesn't impact them as much as they say it impacts them.
[00:47:13] Tony Burnett: It's your job to make sure they can succeed.
[00:47:16] Barbara Banda: Fantastic, Tony. Thank you. So much. Thank you very much [00:47:20] indeed. Thank you. Great appreciative to you for being my guest today. Thank you so much for talking about your work experience. Thanks for talking about your life and [00:47:30] thank you also for this terrific advice that you've offered the people who are listening in.
[00:47:34] Barbara Banda: So excellent. Thank you again, Tony. Thanks Barbara.
[00:47:37] Tony Burnett: Thanks for asking. Thank you.[00:47:40]
[00:47:42] Barbara Banda: Thank you so much for listening to the Model Black. These conversations mean so much to me and they're so [00:47:50] important in helping change to happen. If you've enjoyed what you've listened to, please rate, review, follow, subscribe and share. This helps other people find the [00:48:00] show and it means you won't miss a thing.
[00:48:03]Barbara Banda: If you'd like to find out more information about my book, The Model Black, you can find more information in the [00:48:10] podcast description.